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pinaudesbois
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 Ecrit le: Dec 7 2003, 05:32 PM |
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Sur le chemin de la sagesse
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A la lecture du livre de William, il y a malgr� tout une petite frustation. On aimerait en savoir davantage en particulier sur sa fa�on d'op�rer et surtout quand et � quel endroit.
Pour ma part, je vois mal une intervention de sa part � Dallas et encore moins � Parkland.
La selue possibilit� de maquiller le corps c'�tait � Bethesda. On tiendrait alors une explication sur la divergence entre la photo de la face du Pr�sident, pratiquement int�gre et son contraire, la radiographie qui montre clairement cette m�me partie particuli�rement endommag�e.
Toutefois, il fallait que John Ligget fasse discr�tement et en 24 heures, le trajet Dallas Washington et retour. Au niveau timing �� n'est pas impossible. |
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kaisou
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| Ecrit le: Dec 8 2003, 01:23 AM |
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Maitre Jedi
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Effectivement Pierre , c'est un des aspects troublants du livre de William, dont nous avons deja tent� de discuter
ICI
Il semble que les infos le concernant ne soient pas l�gion... 
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Soutenez PHDN |
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William
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| Ecrit le: Dec 8 2003, 03:02 AM |
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Pierre,
concernant le role de Liggett je me suis arrete aux elements qui pouvaient etre recoupe par differents temoins directs disposes a parler face camera. Le sujet etant sensible, j'ai fait l'impasse sur les sources souhaitant l'anonymat. De fait, le livre et le documentaire relevent une partie d'une histoire qui a le potentiel de devenir un des elements essentiels a la comprehension de l'assassinat. Mon opinion, basee sur des elements non publiables, est que l'intervention de Liggett est intervenue a Bethesda, juste apres l'autopsie. J'ai un temoignage le placant a Love Field apres une halte a Parkland. Je cros aussi, puisque l'on est dans le partage d'opinion, que son aller-retour vers Washington n'etait pas prevu au programme et que les comploteurs auraient prefere que le corps de JFK reste a Parkland.
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William
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| Ecrit le: Dec 9 2003, 02:35 PM |
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Un des points evoques par So What avant qu'il se claque la porte sur les doigts concernait la mort de Jayne Mansfield. Il faudra y revenir dans les jours prochains. |
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wooppy
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| Ecrit le: Dec 9 2003, 07:07 PM |
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Maitre Jedi
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| QUOTE |
| Un des points evoques par So What avant qu'il se claque la porte sur les doigts concernait la mort de Jayne Mansfield. Il faudra y revenir dans les jours prochains. |
C� voudrait dire que Ligget aurait "rafistol�" J.Mansfield apr�s son accident?
D'accord,c'est peut-�tre pas ce que vous voulez �voquer,mais je le comprends comme ��!
P.S.J'esp�re que vous reverrez votre position quant � la fermeture du forum...pour moi,cel� se passe tr�s bien...et beaucoup ici ont une telle connaissance que ce serait dommage de priver ceux qui sont corrects et qui "lisent" les posts par pur plaisir! 
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Qui bene amat, bene castigat
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William
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| Ecrit le: Dec 10 2003, 03:49 PM |
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Toujours dans l'idee d'une intervention de john Liggett apres l'autopsie, voici une interview de Paul O'Connor paru dans le Gainesville Sun. J'ai selectionne quelques passages cles en gras.
Area veteran recounts his role in JFK autopsy
What Paul O'Connor of Gainesville saw on the autopsy table the night of Nov. 22, 1963, was not what is shown in some photos of the body of John F. Kennedy.
"One picture of the back of his head shows a complete skull and the hair is untouched," said O'Connor, who as a 22-year-old Navy corpsman at Bethesda Naval Hospital in Maryland assisted in the autopsy of the assassinated president. "But it was all blown away."
Forty years later, O'Connor remains filled with doubt about what happened in Dallas. But the passage of time, he said, has convinced him that in his lifetime neither he, nor anyone else, will ever know what really happened that day.
"They'll be talking about JFK a hundred years from now just like we're still talking about Lincoln today," said O'Connor, a Vietnam veteran who moved to Gainesville in the early 1970s to earn a degree in audiology at the University of Florida.
He was one of the last people to touch Kennedy's body before it was interred.
After the autopsy was completed, he helped dress the body and place it in a casket. A Secret Service officer in the room assumed, correctly, that with a name like O'Connor, the young corpsman must be Catholic. The agent gave him a rosary, O'Connor said, and told him, "Put it in his hands like Catholics hold a rosary."
"I put it in his hands, but there's no special way Catholics hold a rosary."
Afterward, he said, he was "left with a mess to clean up." After going off duty at 9 the next morning, he slept for 12 hours and then joined the rest of the nation watching television coverage of the tragedy.
The last couple of weeks, as with most milestone anniversaries of the assassination, O'Connor's phone has rung off the hook with calls from news media and others wanting him to retell his experience. By the 40th anniversary it is getting a little tiresome, he said, but he still obliges.
"After the autopsy, we were called into the captain's office and had to sign orders that, under the threat of a general court-martial, we wouldn't talk about it at all," he said. "Then when the Freedom of Information Act came out, everybody started calling me � the nuts and honest people."
One of the Kennedy researchers he said he felt good about, William Law, has written a book in which O'Connor served as a consultant. "Eye of the Historian" was scheduled to be come out this month, O'Connor said, but a problem at the publisher pushed its release to early 2004.
"It should be a good one because (Law) got hold of people who have never talked before," he said.
"I decided to go one last time and help bring this book out and see if we can't shake some people up with it."
In countless interviews and television appearances, he has told what he knows to be the truth from having seen it with his own eyes.
"I wanted to get it off my chest," said O'Connor, 62, who was wounded in Vietnam and for the past 30 years has been disabled from a back injury.
Among the things he witnessed was what he calls "the casket switch." While he and the autopsy team were receiving a shipping casket bearing Kennedy's body, he said, Jackie Kennedy was arriving in Washington on a plane with another casket.
"The casket he was put in in Dallas was not the same one he came to Bethesda in," he said. "And I understand from talking with people at the emergency room in Dallas that he was not placed in a body bag. When he got to us he was in a body bag."
Unzipped, the body bag revealed a gruesome sight.
"I looked at it and said, 'My Lord in heaven.' It looked like a bomb went off inside his head," he said. "My primary role was to get the body in and log it in, which I did, and then I was going to remove the brain. But there was no brain. Most of it was blown out."
Over the years, he said, he has talked to doctors and others who were at Parkland Hospital in Dallas when Kennedy was brought in. But he got little information.
"I remember thinking, somebody has got to those guys and scared the hell out of them," O'Connor said. "One doctor, who is dead now, told me he was told by higher-ups that he'd better keep his mouth shut if he wanted to continue working in medicine."
He said he's been criticized by some people who say he was just a young technician who didn't know what he was looking at during the autopsy.
"But I was a hospital corpsman on my second hitch in the Navy, and going to medical technology school," O'Connor said. "I knew anatomy and physiology. I had participated in 60 or 70 autopsies before Kennedy came in, so I knew what I was doing. All I tell (critics) is that I was there and they were not."
Although he tries to discuss only those things he personally witnessed and knows to be true, O'Connor has for years speculated on what killed JFK. And, he said, it wasn't a bullet.
"I've always said that what killed him was his back brace," he said. "And damned if it didn't come out on TV last night in one of the JFK specials.
"Kennedy had a bad back and he wore this rigid metal back brace, and when he got hit in the neck, the brace propped him up," O'Connor said. "If he didn't have the back brace, he would have fallen forward and wouldn't have been hit a second time. The neck wound wouldn't have been fatal.
"He was wearing something that was supposed to help him," he said, "and it killed him. |
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Nicolas Bernard
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| Ecrit le: Dec 11 2003, 03:14 AM |
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Le t�moignage d'O'Connor est l'un des points forts de la th�orie de Lifton, et � ma connaissance, personne n'a vraiment r�ussi � le r�futer. Cependant, il ne me para�t pas constituer une preuve d�cisive d'un maquillage du corps de Kennedy avant l'autopsie.
Un document para�t confirmer un point de ses d�positions qui n'a jamais vari� : la r�ception du corps de Kennedy � Bethesda dans un cercueil de m�tal - alors que la version traditionnelle (ou officielle) veut que le cadavre n'ait jamais quitt� le lourd cercueil de bronze dans lequel il avait �t� d�pos�. Un re�u �tabli le 23 novembre 1963 � 2 h du matin par l'entreprise de pompes fun�bres de Joseph Gawler, qui a fourni un cercueil en acajou pour y d�poser le corps de JFK apr�s l'autopsie, indique que le corps de Kennedy "a �t� retir� d'un cercueil de transport de m�tal � l'h�pital naval de Bethesda". Voir : http://http://www.jfklancer.com/pub/md/MD129.JPG
On sait que les croque-morts de la firme Gawler se sont occup�s du corps apr�s l'autopsie, sans que le cadavre ait �t� install� dans un cercueil. D�s lors, cette phrase ne peut que renvoyer � l'arriv�e du cadavre � Bethesda dans la soir�e du 22 novembre 1963, avant l'autopsie. L'adjoint de Gawler, Joe Hogan, qui a fourni ce document, a �t� interrog� sur la provenance de cette information. Malheureusement, Hogan ne se rappelait plus si l'�quipe des pompes fun�bres a r�dig� cette mention sur sa propre initiative ou sur la foi de renseignements fournis par le personnel de Bethesda.
Autrement dit, la valeur de ce document est toute relative, car ce re�u n'a pas �t� r�dig� par un t�moin direct. Qui plus est, rappelons que le bronze est un m�tal : il n'est pas exclu que certaine confusion se soit produite. Il faut n�anmoins admettre qu'un tel re�u est troublant si on le consid�re dans son contexte. Car plusieurs t�moignages confirment la version d'O'Connor (voir W. Reymond, Autopsie d'un crime d'Etat, Flammarion, 1998, p. 222-224) : c'est bien dans un cercueil de m�tal que Kennedy est arriv� � Bethesda, non dans le cercueil de bronze.
Cela veut-il dire qu'il y a eu substitution pour maquiller le corps ? Pas totalement. La d�position d'un adjoint du g�n�ral Wehle (commandant du district militaire de Washington DC), le lieutenant Richard Lipsey, le 18 janvier 1978 devant deux enqu�teurs du HSCA, indique que le g�n�ral Wehle a fait d�poser le corps dans un corbillard qui a p�n�tr� � l'entr�e arri�re de l'h�pital. Lipsey pr�cise qu'un corbillard devait servir d'app�t : c'est ce v�hicule qui est arriv� � Bethesda par l'entr�e officielle. Voir le d�but de la d�position de Lipsey ici.
Il y a donc eu manipulation, mais pas de quoi crier au complot : Wehle, qui ob�issait peut-�tre aux instructions de Robert Kennedy tr�s vite pr�sent � Andrews AFB, a voulu �loigner les curieux. La proc�dure n'a en tout cas et de ce fait pas surpris le capitaine John Stover, en charge du commandement de l'h�pital de Bethesda, qui l'a ainsi interpr�t�e (cit� in Reymond, op. cit., p. 225).
S'agissant du body-bag, je souscris aux analyses de Roger Feinman et Bob Artwohl : O'Connor a �t� victime d'une confusion, d'autant que son t�moignage date de l'apr�s-guerre du Vietnam, qui a "popularis�" le concept de body-bag. Il est au demeurant le seul � se souvenir d'un body-bag, � l'exception de son sup�rieur Stover, mais ce dernier n'�tait pas s�r de lui et a sans doute �t� victime des questions "orient�es" de Lifton... O'Connor lui-m�me a reconnu que sa m�moire pouvait pr�senter quelques d�fauts apr�s toutes ces ann�es. Enfin, James Metzler, autre coll�gue d'O'Connor, a d�menti que le corps de Kennedy se trouvait dans un body-bag. La description des t�moins concorde : Kennedy se trouvait bien dans une esp�ce de drap en plastique. Voir : http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/lifton.txt et http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/the_critics/f...hapter_six.html
Reste le trou � l'arri�re du cr�ne de Kennedy. Disons que sur ce point, je suis plut�t d'accord avec O'Connor, � la lecture des autres t�moignages des personnels de Parkland et Bethesda, m�me si ces t�moignages se contredisent entre eux et selon les ann�es. Sur ce point, je reconnais que le probl�me existe.
Cela signifie-t-il que Ligget a particip� � un �ventuel maquillage du corps de Kennedy avant l'autopsie ?
Pr�cision : dans l'attente d'autres �l�ments, un �l�ment du t�moignage de sa "veuve" m'incite � penser que par del� ses exag�rations (ex. : sur Mansfield), elle dit vrai quant � la disparition de son mari le 22 novembre 1963. Et cet �l�ment est le suivant : elle est incapable de d�voiler ce qu'a fait son mari dans ce laps de temps. Si elle mentait, il lui �tait tr�s simple, comme pour le cas Mansfield, de pr�tendre que son mari lui avait tout d�ball�, qu'il avait contribu� � participer � un complot ou autre chose. Son ignorance est un gage de sinc�rit� - mais cela me conduit-il � la croire sur parole, non, pas pour l'instant.
Admettons donc qu'elle dise vrai. Pourquoi Ligget aurait-il �t� recrut� ? Pour quelque chose qui a forc�ment trait � l'assassinat car il attend le meurtre d'Oswald par Ruby pour rentrer chez lui avec sa famille. Un complot, alors ? Une crise de parano�a ? Ou alors un coup mont� pour dissimuler quelque chose qui n'avait rien � voir ?
A-t-il pu participer � la manipulation du cadavre ? Il faudrait d'abord d�montrer que le corps a �t� laiss� sans protection � Parkland ou qu'une substitution s'est produite � bord d'Air Force One : pas demain la veille. Si l'on fait abstraction de ces d�tails fort importants, son emploi du temps se tient : il embarque � bord d'un avion o� se trouve le corps � "corriger" et revient, toujours en avion, dans l'apr�s-midi du 23 novembre. Il n'a ni dormi ni chang� de fringues.
Ou alors, s'il est r�ellement le tueur que William et Billie Sol Estes d�crivent dans Le Dernier T�moin, il a particip� � une op�ration de nettoyage en r�gle � Dallas et au Texas...
En tout cas, l'affaire Ligget pose certaines questions. Il est dommage que l'enqu�te de William ait, pour l'instant, suscit� davantage d'interrogations que de r�ponses. Personnellement et pour le moment, je reste assez dubitatif quant � la validit� de cette piste.
Pour la petite histoire, le cercueil de bronze avait �t� fourni par un entrepreneur de pompes fun�bres de Dallas, Vernon B. Oneal. Contact� en catastrophe par l'agent Clint Hill du Secret Service de l'h�pital Parkland, il avait choisi le mod�le le plus cher, de type "Britannia", de l'Elgin Casket Company. Le cercueil �tait si lourd (400 kilos de bronze massif) qu'Oneal dut faire appel � trois de ses employ�s pour l'aider - ils l'entrepos�rent p�niblement dans le corbillard. Autrement dit, qu'il soit vide ou non, le cercueil pesait grosso merdo le m�me poids pour les porteurs... En janvier 1964, Oneal r�clama 3.995 dollars � la famille Kennedy, � qui il accorda finalement une ristourne de 500 dollars devant le refus de la famille de payer une somme aussi �lev�e.
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Jin-Tae (Nicolas Bernard en Cor�en), Fr�re de Sang de Jin-Suk (Kaisou en Cor�en)
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William
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| Ecrit le: Dec 12 2003, 05:56 PM |
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Sur le forum du JFKlancer, Denis Morissette a poste une serie d'echanges avec un autre embaumeur de dallas, un ancien collegue de Liggett ( et je sais que looney est egalement en contact avec lui). Voici l'ensemble de la correspondance avec en gras, quelques passages interessants :
I received my correspondant's agreement to have his emails sent to me posted here. The man is Daniel Rocco-Rusk, Mortician. He has a website: www.newdeath.com He claims he knew John Ligget and to have some very little information on the aspects related to the handling of JFK's body. I told him that a gathering of JFK researchers will be present at the Lancer conference. I told him that people there might be interested in meeting him.
Email #1
In a message dated 10/21/2003 11:32:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, writes:
Denis wrote:
I see that you have looked for info on a Dallas mortician John Ligget. Is the one on that photo? And may I know what you want to know about him?
Thanks,
Denis
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Daniel replied:
I knew John....and I want to know anything I can about him. The John I knew was not the man who was jailed for the crimes he was alleged to have committed.
I am a funeral director. Several of us were together last month, and one other mortician we were with also knew and worked with John. Some of us have some good memories of him and some not so good...this is the case with anyone.
John...to all of this friends and past colleagues has remained a mystery to us for many years. The deal involving John happened so fast and at a time in our lives when a lot of things were going on. Many times over the years John has come up in conversation.
Most of all, I think several of us, especially funeral directors who knew him, would simply like to understand what happened right there in front of us, or what didn't happen. We would rather have some facts about John instead a bunch of speculation.
I am a co-owner of two mortuary science lists and a member of several of the same type of funeral related lists on the Internet. Not a month goes by that someone does not bring up, at least once, the subject of John Ligget. Even the people who knew him and worked with him cannot answer any questions about him.
Any information you could provide would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
Daniel Rocco-Rusk
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Email #2
In a message dated 10/22/2003 12:14:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, writes:
Denis wrote:
BTW, do you know the people who saw JFK's body on November 22, 1963?
Thanks.
Daniel replied:
Yes I do. I knew Bo Butler; Clayton Butler (no realtionship) Howard "Red Yeager; Popa O'Neal; Dud Jr. and all of those guys. I work with them and for them.
John was a very interesting and amusing guy. I do not know if he worked on Jayne Mansfield or not. He never mentioned this. He was an excellent embalmer.
On November 22, 1963 many funeral directors in Dallas were called into work. Many funeral home owners knew immediately that their service would be needed...no one knew who would be chosen. Red and another guy who did the book keeping at O'Neal's simply happened to be at PMH on that day on an ambulance call. A Secret Service agent asked Red if he was with a funeral home. The rest is history.
However, some of the historical "facts" are way off...it's just little things that really do not make any difference.
Daniel.
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Email #3
In a message dated 10/22/2003 12:14:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, writes:
Denis wrote:
I came across Ligget's story in a French magazine PARIS MATCH that just published a story on the JFK assassination. Ligget was mentionned in the article. Briefly, it says, "John Ligget was known for having worked on the facial reconstruction of Jayne Mansfield. On November 22, 1963, Ligget was asked by a colleague to come and work on JFK's . Ligget left right away, and was not seen again by his colleague for 24 hours. Her wife explains that Ligget left with her and her kids for San Antonio, and booked in a motel. After watching LHO killed by Ruby, he seemed relieved, and told his wife, "OK, we can go back home now." Do you know who is Ligget's colleague mentionned in this article? It also says that Ligget "disappeared" in 1975. Is it true?
Daniel replied:
Ligget did "disappear" circa 1975. He died. He was killed by Dallas Sheriff Deputies in an escape attempt while being transfered from the jail to the court house.
Do you still have the article on Ligget? I am very interested in what you told me for several reasons. 1. He frequented the Carousel Club and Campesi's Egyptian (Italian) Restaurant 2. John had an attitude that he had a license to do anything he chose to do. 3. John was out killing women at night when he was supposed to be at the funeral home.
Red Yeager and I transferred Jack Ruby back and forth from the jail to PMH for his cancer treatments. He talked none stop going and coming.
I also know why the Secret Service took the full couch Bateville 32 ounce solid copper casket that day at O'Neal's instead of the one they originally selected. I also know what happened to the casket they selected but did not take. I know who is in that casket today..and I also know where the 32 ounce solid copper that the President was transferred in from Dallas to Andrews AFB is...and it is definitely not in the bottom of an "ocean dump." It's actually a humorous thing. It's Keystone cop stuff.
I am definitely not a Kennedy investigator...but I know the local behind the scenes stuff that happened that day and in the days that followed, and a lot of it is funny as in laughable.
Daniel Rocco-Rusk.
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Email #4
In a message dated 10/22/2003 5:34:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, writes:
Daniel: I also know why the Secret Service took the full couch Bateville 32 ounce solid copper casket that day at O'Neal's instead of the one they originally selected.
Denis asked: May I know why?
Daniel replied: When they arrived at O'Neal's the Secret Service literally run in the back door. (They were in a hurry.) They wanted the "best casket"...which translated means the most expensive.
In the Southeast corner of the selection room was a nickel plated silver sarcophagus "casket." This casket was made on contract by Texas Casket and Pine Box Company in Waco, Texas. Only "Peg" (Popa) O'Neal would have ordered something like this.
The funeral home, I still remember the address 3206 Oaklawn, was located in the land of "fruits and nuts" not far from Highland and University Park...where someone just might purchase such a casket. (I thought the thing was ugly, baroque looking.) This casket in 1963 retailed for $38,000.00 In 1969 it retailed for 40,000 and then in 1973 50,000.
That day 11-22-63; the Secret Service and everyone in that funeral home tried to move that casket which weighed in at just under 4000 pounds. It was a full couch, with two lids; the outer lid made of steel, dipped in silver, and then nickel plated. That was only the lid. When you opened that lid the inside had a half couch glass lid that split at the waste.
The Secret Service were doing what they knew they should do and that was to take the best and most expensive casket available....but that casket was unloaded from a flatbed truck with a forklift, and that's how they got it into the selection room in the first place and it would not budge.
They went to the bronze colored 32 ounce solid copper full couch that was sitting next to it and loaded it in a coach on a pair of church trucks. That casket weighed in at about 400 pounds, and was the next to the most expensive which was the sarcophagus. The solid copper full couch Batesville then sold for about $1, 800.00.
They all went back to Parkland. The funny thing was, and you would have to know Peg O'Neal and you would know that it was funny, is that when they got the President inside of the casket and fought it out with Rose (The DCME at that time) about removing the body; I do not know where Peg was. He was probably talking to news reporters, because that's what he liked to do. (Peg would get out at an automobile accident on an ambulance call and while the attendant and a cop loaded the patient he would be out shaking hands with people and passing out business cards to spectators.)
They drove off with the President's body in his hearse and left Peg there on the dock and he was pissed. He had an ambulance crew to take him to Love Field and they would not let him in the gate to the tarmac, and Peg stood out there looking at his hearse parked next to Air Force One, and he was literally in tears....actually crying.
Circa 1974 O'neal's went bankrupt and Dudley M. Hughes at 400 East Jefferson Blvd. in Oakcliff bought all of O'neal's caskets and equipment, including the sarcophagi that was still sitting in the same place it was in 1963. I rememeber walking into the Hughes selection room one day and seeing that casket. There was only one of those around and there it was with a 50,000 price tag on it.
It was common knowledge that this was the casket that they tried to put the President in. O. L. Nelms, a Dallas millionaire found out that Hughes had that casket and he wanted it. He purchased it and paid cash for it. However, the Hughes Family was in debt to him and he may not have paid a dime for it. Nelms died about 1974 and that's where he went, in the casket destined to go to the President. Herman Riddle and I embalmed him.
I have to get out of here, I'll tell you later about the 32 ounce solid copper that such a conspiracy was made out of. Peg got it back minus the interior lining. It was completely stripped. It was a revenge thing because of his hounding the Kennedy Family for not paying him.
He thought, when he received a call from a funeral home in DC that he was getting a shipped in body. This was what he was told, and this is what he believed when he picked up "the body" at Love Field nearly a year later. When they got it back to the funeral home and took it out of the shipping case, there it was; deliberately scratched like it had been keyed, and the interior was missing.
No one at the time saw the history that was sitting in front of them with that casket. Peg sent it to Batesville, in Indiana, to be repaired, but what he got back from Batesville was a brand new casket. Peg was ecstatic. He felt vindicated, and had a brand new solid copper casket and he was totally happy with that. Someone in the Hillenbrand Family that owns Bateville today has quiet a conversation piece.
I laughed when I saw a photo of a helicopter dropping that casket in the ocean.
Take care, and if I can help you with any of this local yokel stuff, let me know. I doubt that any of this would be useful to any investigation. None of this is all that strange or mysterious. This was simply Dallas and the year was 1963.
Daniel Rocco-Rusk
I would love to know anything you know about John
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Email #5:
Daniel wrote:
If you are really interested in this local behind the scenes stuff, I actually have a lot of that; and definitely a lot of local JFK humor in a jugular vein things.
...by the way, O.L. Nelms...hope they never disinter that guy for any reason.
Daniel |
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samdler
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| Ecrit le: Dec 15 2003, 09:28 AM |
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Dans le dernier t�moin, Will �crit que Liggett avait rendu pr�sentable la pauvre Jane Mansfield � la suite de sa d�capitation. Mais il me semble si mes souvenior et mes lectures sur cette actrice sont bonnes, qu'elle n'a jamais �t� d�capit�e, que ce n'est qu'une l�gende, une erreur de journalistes arriv�es sur les lieux et qui ont vu la perruque que portait Mansfield et aurait cru � sa d�capitation... |
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kaisou
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| Ecrit le: Dec 15 2003, 09:00 PM |
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Maitre Jedi
Groupe: Members
Messages: 1149
Membre n�: 8
Inscrit le: 4-July 03
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Exact, voir d�bat pr�c�dent en cliquant sur le lien ci dessous
Fil consacr� a John Liggett 1ere mouture
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Soutenez PHDN |
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